UK Joins Canada Against Boeing Over Bombardier Investigation File


Nothing came up for these so, I’m making this thread.
For the real deal skip below the line. For the simple explanation read below.

Basically, Boeing is jealous of Bombardier for doing better with the CSeries than their own 737 MAX 7, Boeing is being a poor sport and using stupid excuses to pick on Bombardier.
UK & Canada Reaction = Oh no you didn’t.
Canada Reaction #2 = Let’s cancel our Super Hornets order and buy some nice F-35’s from Lockheed-Martin.

If any of you remember, back in June Boeing filed an investigation to the U.S. Commerce Department because the government subsidies allowed them to give Delta a cut price for the CSeries.

As CBC states - Boeing asked the U.S. Commerce Department in April to investigate whether Bombardier is dumping planes into the U.S. market, alleging government subsidies to the company allowed it to close a deal for 75 C-series passenger jets with Delta Airlines at a cut-rate price.

Just a couple days ago Theresa May has raised the issue to Trump and asked him to take action. Representatives from Northern Ireland have also asked Pence to do something. May is visiting Canada now and is discussing this with Justin Trudeau while in Ottawa

The UK has proceeded to do this because it Bombardier is Northern Ireland’s biggest manufacturing employer.

Things are going to get heated and the preliminary hearing is on September 25.

What do you guys think?

News Sources

Airbus announces partnership of 50.01% in C Series Program
Bombardier wins trade dispute in the US
Bombardier dispute: US court overturns punitive tariffs
Bombardier wins trade dispute in the US
Former Empire vs Boeing
Former Empire vs Boeing

Boeing is acting childish for the reason they don’t offer an aircraft in the 100-150 seat market, therefore is accusing Bombardier of “dumping” the planes at a discount to Delta who is looking for a aircraft of that size. The 717 is discontinued & the 737-700 (Max 7) cannot compete with the CS 100/ 300 so this is a last ditch attempt to prevent C Series aircraft from attracting more orders.

Boeing are just shooting themselves in the foot at this point…


Very interesting… I think Boeing is kinda crazy right now, but I also don’t belive your explination. The 737-7MAX is not even in the same category as the c-series.


I think Boeing is driving themselves into the ground.


No offense dude, but if you are trying to convey information to us, especially relating to #real-world-aviation , we are more inclined to be receptive to what you have to say if you aren’t so one sided and hostile.

On another note, I see both sides to this. I agree with Bombardier that since the CS series is half the size of the B737/B737-7, it is rightfully less expensive, and it fills, in my opinion, a completely different niche in the aviation industry than the 737.

However, Boeing is right when they say it is too suspiciously low priced. It is completely normal for airlines to negotiate the price down by 20 or 30 percent. But the listing price for the CS100 is (according to Bombardier’s website) $79.5 million, and Delta made purchases for the aircraft at $20 million, which is a 75 percent price difference, and I don’t see how that is possible without subsidies making up for their lost profits.


No, the CS300 IS the same category as the 737-7. 120-170 Seat range.
CS300 has longer range I believe. When the first CS300 was delivered it flew direct from Montreal to Stockholm and had 5 1/2 tons of fuel left, enough to keep flying past Moscow.


The CS300 has a range of 3300 nm, which is 75nm more than the Boeing 737-7.


Do you have a link to a reliable news source? @tranquil_skyflyer


Right, sorry about that, forgot to put the CBC link in. Will add to main post along with some others.

Toronto Star is biggest newspaper in Canada BTW, if you wanted to know it’s reliability @NetJets_Nick


Yep I know. I just wanted to make sure it wasn’t a CNN article. 😜


Do I detect bias in this topic against Boeing? Well Bombardier decided to pick a fight with two large aircraft manufacturing companies, Airbus and Boeing, that dwarf Bombardier in every market except for regional so only way Bombardier could keep up the fight is to have large amount of cash. The question is where does Bombardier get its money from, from Canada of course. It’s business jet market isn’t so great since business jet market is very saturated and regional market is facing competition with Embraer and Sukhoi.

I wonder why Airbus hasn’t taken any action about this fight, CS300 competes with Airbus A319. Anyway, Boeing didn’t really need to pick up the fight with Bombardier since number of 737s on order are outpacing CS series. Delta has lot of 737s on order along with CS so Boeing didn’t lose Delta. As for government of Canada, it was dirty of them to bring politic into this fight by threatening Boeing that they will never buy their fighters. What does fighter has to do with commercial planes? To be frank I don’t care if Boeing get kicked out of fighter competition, Boeing’s fighters are very old design and need to be buried. I want F-35 to win since they won the competition and it’s new design, but new elected left politicians cancelled it and restarted the competition.


I think everybody’s crazy and needs to
1: learn how to lose


I heard about this yesterday, pretty appalling of Boeing tbh. Not impressed… the CSeries deserves to succeed.


Bias, no. Truth, yes.
Also the CS300 is outselling the 737-7 and A319 COMBINED by over 150 orders.
As for the Government of Canada and the UK, why not get involved, Canada just gave Bombardier a large sum of money, which’ll all be gone if Boeing succeeds, and for the UK, big employment in Belfast. Plus Boeing is picking on Bombardier stupidly as they are the only ones doing it, and they can live with it.


Boeing isnt just trying to dig for a case here. Bombardier actually got a cash infusion into the CS100/300 program by the Canadian government and a large portion of that was interest free loans. Unless their finance books were formally released it is anyone’s guess how much of that money was actually used on the development/program cost and how much of that was not and just went straight to the company as the company used $1 billion of it’s own money to keep the program running and if it used the Canadian taxpayer money to recuperate those costs then yes that is a big no no as defined by what is acceptable with a small business loan and that applies to large business loans "Business loans are also likely to come with restrictions. For example, Small Business Administration (SBA) loans can only be used to operate your business. You can’t use them to pay off other debts, buy something in hopes of an increase in value, or for any purpose “that is not considered to be a sound business purpose as determined by SBA.”



I sense a bunch of lawsuits being filed soon!


Yawn. The Canadian government is known for providing bailouts to Bombardier. If the assistance is deemed illegal, then Bombardier will raise money some other way. There shouldn’t be major long-term effects.

Definitely. All of this trade dispute malarky has nothing to do with jealousy. Just a slightly unethical, but completely legal means of getting rid of competition. Bombardier was over ambitious in the beginning, and the Bombardier family refused to dilute their ownership stake. This whole interest-free loan thing is to keep Bombardier from going under while they ramp up production rates.

Bombardier is a publically traded company, just look at their balance and statement of cash flows. A company can divert cash really quickly. The CSeries program was indeed in danger of going under, now they’re not. If the repayment of the funds is ordered, Bombardier can drag out the process so much that they won’t be at risk of going under anymore by the time the order can be enforced and the damage would’ve already been done.

The $382.2 million loan doesn’t even come close to covering the discounts Bombardier offered to Delta. It is reported that the Delta deal was about $19.6 million per frame, which is over $4.5 billion off list price, and about a billion off of Boeings cost claim. Now, I’m not an expert on international trade, and the decision can very well be against Bombardier because of the shaky legal ground the loans are standing on, but to claim that the Canadian government caused the discount is a little far-fetched.


Before we argue any further, I discovered from Bombardier’s orders list that Delta ordered 75 of CS100, not CS300 which isn’t in same class as Boeing 737 Max 7. So I don’t know why CS300 was mentioned. Now for Canada supporting Bombardier, it’s your taxed money so if Bombardier goes bankrupt it’s your taxed money being wasted. In my opinion, you are biased against Boeing, your last sentence show that.

You are partially right about CS300 outselling Max 7 and A319 neo, it’s 137, not 150. That will be diminished when Airbus and Boeing both pick up more order. Let’s not forget about Bombardier’s nemesis Embraer developing its new jets to compete with CS series. Bombardier did pick right time to develop its CS series, but they weren’t quick enough to have it into service to hurt Airbus and Boeing more. Airbus and Boeing both responded very quick to CS by slapping on new engines on their narrow bodies. Bombardier had couple of serious delays in its development of CS series which pushed its entry of service from 2014 to 2016 giving more time to Airbus and Boeing to develop new series.


Boeing is mental, fact is Boeing only has a large market for medium and large jets, they need to get over themselves, you created the 787, on the most modern and advanced jets of all time, stop having a dummy spit because they made a better aircraft then you


Boeing shouldn’t be doing that, as one of the leading aircraft manufacturers, terrible idea